Curse

Inde · Sep 13, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I saw this article and I have issue with it so decided it would just be a great discussion topic. There is an organization called Fairtip.org that is calling for restaurants to add an automatic 20 percent service fee to every check.

The article is below but can I say, regardless of what this article is trying to "convince" me of, I do indeed tip on the service I receive. I was wondering what your tipping styles are really. Truthfully, I tip 15% for mediocore service, 20% for good to really great service. But yes, I have left a dollar tip before or no tip at all for service that was just crappy. I don't believe that forcing me to tip a waiter 20% for service that was truly subpar would ever make me return to the restaurant.

One thing I didn't see the article delve into enough is the fact that if a 20% tip is automatic how hard is a waiter or waitress going to try to please a customer. If they have a difficult customer I've seen many waiter and waitresses truly try to do their best despite they know they won't get a good tip but the effort is there. Without any incentive and knowing they get a 20% automatic tip I believe that service levels really will go down.

I know how hard a waiter and waitress works sometimes to get screwed out of a tip and that, for the most part, it's a thankless job but requiring myself as a patron of that restaurant to be "forced" to give a 20% tip for service that I find subpar could lose that restaurant my business entirely.

So I'm just wondering your tipping styles and thoughts.

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NEW YORK (Sept. 13) - Waiting tables is a stressful job and sometimes not even lucrative, given servers' sticky reliance on tips for income.

Former waiter and restaurant manager Yakup Ulutas founded a nonprofit organization, Fairtip.org, which is calling for restaurants to add an automatic 20 percent service fee to every check.

In some states, restaurants are only legally required to pay as little as $2 or $3 an hour. So if a server earns $30 in tips on a bad night, he could feasibly walk out having earned less than minimum wage after tipping out the bartender and busboys (a common practice in most restaurants).

To level the playing field, waiters are taking action. Some are resorting to guerrilla tactics - it's not uncommon for waiters to personally confront stingy tippers, or to blog about them on sites such as WaiterRant.Net.

One former waiter, Yakup Ulutas, is proposing restaurants change the system. Ulutas, a 36 year-old restaurant manager in Atlanta, founded a nonprofit organization, Fairtip.org, to persuade restaurants to implement an automatic 20 percent service fee on every check. He estimates 2,500 waiters have joined.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a server who wouldn't love to see his or her employer slap an automatic tip on to every check. But wouldn't it make more sense for restaurants to hike prices by 20 percent and raise workers' salaries?

"That wouldn't work," Yakup says. "Many restaurants wouldn't be able to afford to pay higher wages."

The low-margin restaurant business is a notoriously difficult one. Raising server wages could easily zap the profits of small to mid-sized restaurants.

But diners have also seen a rapid rise in the tipping rate. Zagat Survey, which surveys the top restaurants nationwide, found that the average tip has increased from to 18.7 percent in 2006 from 17.75 percent in 2000.

At least one academic thinks that if the tipping rate rises too high, eating out will become prohibitive for many people, and restaurant sales will stall.

"Tipping is about buying social approval, and the way you do that is to at least tip an average amount, but most people want to tip a little bit better than average. That exerts an upward pressure on tips," says Michael Lynn, an associate professor at Cornell University School of Hotel Administration.

It would make sense for the restaurant industry to establish a norm before tipping rates move up to the point of pricing diners out of the market, he said.

While most restaurants already charge an automatic service fee for large parties, at least one restaurant began the practice of charging an automatic 20 percent gratuity, or "autograt," as it is sometimes called, on every check.

Per Se, a pricey New York restaurant started by star chef Thomas Keller, caused a public outcry when it implemented a 20 percent service fee last year. All prix fixe menus at Per Se cost $210, according to the restaurant's web site, so assuming customers spend about $100 for wine, a tip is likely to total around $60. Still, the restaurant said no patrons have refused to pay the service fee, and some guests actually tip above the required amount.

It may sound like a lucrative arrangement, but some waiters would rather take their chances and brave the risk of not making money.

"For as much disappointment as there is in waiting tables, regulating tips might detract from the sense that if you do your job well, you'll be rewarded," says Melissa Klein, a 25 year-old waitress at Lodge restaurant in Brooklyn, N.Y.

It's a common belief - that tips are based on service - but Lynn argues it's all wrong. Research has shown that tips are rarely based on the quality of service, and are usually determined arbitrarily.

"Servers think there's a relationship between tips and service, but there isn't. How sunny it is outside literally has as big of an impact on a tip as the service," Lynn says.

One study showed that when waitresses wore flowers in their hair they earned 17 percent more than when they didn't. Another study suggests that waiters who squat beside tables receive an average tip of 18 percent, versus a 15 percent tip received by waiters who stand next to their tables.

Some waiters concede that tipping behavior has very little to do with service. Theresa Burkhart, a 31 year-old waitress and actress in Manhattan, says overtippers tend to overtip regardless of service, and undertippers tend to undertip; Canadians and Brits often tip 10 percent, while Japanese customers tip around 20 percent.

Burkhart herself says she tips a minimum of 20 percent across the board.

"I find it unacceptable for people not to know that the tipping rate is 20 percent," Burkhart said.

The sentiment is widely shared on the Internet; a database started on one Web site - bitterwaitress.com - allows servers across the country to submit the names of customers who tipped less than 17 percent. Actress Sandra Bernhard is listed in the database for having skipped out on a tip after eating a $120 comped dinner at a Rochester, N.Y. club where she performed.

Cheapskates can stretch servers to the limit - in one 1989 incident, a waiter attacked two diners with a knife, inflicting minor injuries, over a $2 to $3 tip on a $50 check.

While public humiliation may be a low blow, it's still preferable to stabbing stingy tippers.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a...00010000000001

I pwnd U · Sep 13, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I am like you, i will tip if the service is good, if not they get a little tip or no tip at all. If they start putting in an automatic 20% tip then waiters and waitresses will more then likely get lazy since they wont have to work as hard for a good tip. The last thing i want is to go into a restruant and have the worst service ever yet still have to fork over 20% for the worst waiter/waitress ever. Not cool at all.

Malice Black · Sep 13, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

In the UK tipping is not compulsory but i always leave between £10-£20 depending on the service.

IMO people should not be required to tip i think that is a ludicrous idea.

Do we tip the pump attendant? No

Do we tip store attendant? No

So why should you have to tip a waiter?

EDIT: I tip a waiter if the service is satisfactory to some degree otherwise they get jack.

tommarrow · Sep 13, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I agree with Inde on this one. I don't want to pay 20% if the server is not very good at their job.
I look at it this way many jobs have you bending over backwards to make a customer happy yet they do not get tips at all. If you do not like the amount of pay you get then find another job that pays better. I find the whole tip thing a problem too. If I go somewhere and order a burger for my meal the check may be $10 with a $2 tip, however if I order a nice steak and lobster and a nice bottle of wine the check may be $100 with a $20 tip. The waiter did not work any harder except to open a bottle of wine yet the tip is very different. How is this fair to me the consumer?
What the article did not comment on is the nights where you will make well above your 20% in a night.

Angelic-One · Sep 13, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Well, I always tip, no matter what. I don't care if the man or woman gives me an attitude or takes forever to serve me, because I know what they go through. My mother was a waitress for many years, and was raising myself and my older brothers and younger sisters during those hard times, and it was very, VERY stressful on her. When you are put in this situation, you need those tips. I'm not saying it gives them reason to give you any less of a good service, but we all have our days, do we not?

I tip around 25%, no matter what, and even more around holidays.

I don't think this idea would be a good one though. I can see alot of people not going out to eat as much...

Retribution X · Sep 13, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I always find someting humorious at a resturant. I always tip 5-10 bucks.

I was at one resturant, and the waiter dropped my food on the floor, and on another patron. I tipped the most there because I had to go the restroom to laugh.

kg_lildude1 · Sep 13, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

definition of a tip:
To give a gratuity to.

For those who don't know what that means or don't want to look it up:
1. a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.
2. something given without claim or demand.

now tell me, if they make a 20% tip automatic on all services, is it still considered a tip? If this is truly a problem just raise their pay, or better yet, let them get a better job.

do you know how much easier it would be if all you had to do at a restaurant is place your order at the front, get a seat, then the chef gives you your food when it's ready? well it sounds to perfect, so it just can't be that way.

don't get me wrong, i do tip, but i actually tip on the service, the way it should be judged by.

Goats17 · Sep 13, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Forced tip is horrible. It happened at my graduation. We all went out to East Side Marios after the dance and the tip was already added. Therefore the waitressess knew that they were already getting a 2-% tip, so they gave us the bitchiest, shittiest serving ever. Fairtip.org should be shut down immediately.

majoho · Sep 13, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

In the UK tipping is not compulsory but i always leave between £10-£20 depending on the service.

IMO people should not be required to tip i think that is a ludicrous idea.

Do we tip the pump attendant? No

Do we tip store attendant? No

So why should you have to tip a waiter?

EDIT: I tip a waiter if the service is satisfactory to some degree otherwise they get jack.

Same in Denmark - around 25-30 years ago or so a law was passed so the salary for people relying on tips was raised.

Obviously that just meant those services got a bit more expensive, so you could say it just made tipping mandatory.

Personally I like it that way, relying on tips really makes you a part beggar.

Terra Xin · Sep 13, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

While public humiliation may be a low blow,

You go and try to stab someone, and the only outcome that can be thought of is public humiliation???

I suppose if people want an automatic 20% tip, they could get it, but then they would never get anything higher.

Quote:

I'm not saying it gives them reason to give you any less of a good service, but we all have our days, do we not?

yes. But think of it this way. If you have problems, a good thing to do would be to talk it over with a friend. A bad thing to do would be to radiate your problems through attitude towards people who really don't deserve it.

unienaule · Sep 13, 2006, 11:39 PM // 23:39

OK, saying service doesn't result in tips is crap, at least here in the Midwest. I don't know how people in other regions feel, but here we still pay people more if the service is good. If it sucks, they get crappy tips, not because it's raining outside. Giving everyone 20% tips would reduce the quality of the service industry. If there's no reward for doing a good job, experience has shown that people will do as little as they possibly can get by with, but if they're trying to impress you the entire time, then of course they do a better job. I have a couple cousins who were great waitresses, and because their service was so awesome, they made tons of money! This just reminds me of people who whine in Guild Wars because they have to work to get rich.

Opeth11 · Sep 14, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I never liked the forced tip idea. There is a nice restaurant near my house where all the waiters and waitresses smiled politely, offered free refills, made up for their mistakes with more free goodies and never complained in front of you.

Very soon, the restaurant decided to throw in a 15% force tip into the bill, and the quality declined quickly. It takes a person forever to get a waiter or waitress to answer you, they rarely crack a smile, never offered you things like refills, salt, pepper, ketchup, and made several mistakes in the orders.

How a thing can change so easily. I'll never go there again o.o

Malice Black · Sep 14, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

This came to me..

America the land of freedom ect yet you lot get hit with some stupid ass rules/laws ect

i lived in the "bible belt" for 4 years when i was younger and i believe america to be anything but the land of freedom and free speech..Utah no drinking, the amount of church's in salt lake city..the lost goes on and on

you lot move over here and we will send all the forgien bastards over there *sorry* refugees..my bad

Fungus Amongus · Sep 14, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

If I went to a restaurant and had crappy service, then received a bill with an automatic 20% gratuity added, I would call for a manager and dispute the bill. At least then a manager would get feedback on who was a good server or a bad server.

I typically leave 15%-20% for good service. Outstanding service gets 20% rounded up to the nearest $5 or $10, depending on the total tab.

Many restaurants have signs stating that parties of 6 or more will have an automatic 15% gratuity added to the check. It would be the host's responsibilty to seat larger parties to be served by the best waiters/waitresses.

I certainly do not think that automatic tips added to dinner checks is fair in most cases.

Down here in South Florida, though, automatic gratuities are often necessary. Canadian tourists here are known to be lousy tippers, often leaving $2 or $3 for a $100 meal. Imagine making all of $2.13 an hour, serving six tables of four, and totalling between $10.13 and $14.13 an hour? And that's during the few busy hours of the day. Consider serving three parties of three per hour for three hours. 3 x ($2.13 x 3) + ($2 x $3) = $37.17 for three hours of work.

That's not bad for a teenager or college student. But that will be at a Friday's, Chili's or other common chain. But for someone making a living in a more upscale restaurant, that's pretty pathetic.

Inde · Sep 14, 2006, 03:41 AM // 03:41

LOL, you can indeed drink and purchase alcohol in Utah, and UT is not part of the Bible belt

While I was living in TX (known for the rednecks and bars and yet part of the bible belt) they have dry counties there. Every state and counties/cities in that state have different laws. There is no state that outlaws drinking entirely.

Back on topic, I've heard in Australia they love us foriegners since we tip. My parents went there last year and they said that Australia doesn't have tipping for waiters and waitresses because of their wages but foreigners continue to leave them tips at restaurants.

Dwiggit · Sep 14, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I've heard in Australia they love us foriegners since we tip. My parents went there last year and they said that Australia doesn't have tipping for waiters and waitresses because of their wages but foreigners continue to leave them tips at restaurants.

Now THAT''s the right attitude!
The tip is NOT expected, but MUCH appreciated!
(And the employers pay a wage that doesn't depend on tips!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Do we tip the pump attendant? No
Do we tip store attendant? No

I've been witnessing more people asking for tips for meager services lately.
I visited a hotel recently where an elevator attendant was holding out his hand.... I wish I could get paid for standing around pushing a button!

Dwig

Former Ruling · Sep 14, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

The Waiters AND Customers get screwed in the end by the current system AND the new one...It isnt solving the problem.

1) Since Tips exist Employers can give salaries MUCH lower than Minimum wage, which makes the Waiter most of the time TOTALLY dependent on tips

2) Most employers have moved to a "pool" system where Tips are collected in a pool and at the end of the day Every Waiter/Busboy/Bartender takes their share to insure that waiters get SOMETHING. This screws the customer because he is giving graditude (what a "tip" is) to people that didnt help him at all and cannot directly tip a good waiter more, and screws the waiter because he is losing hard earned (being a good waiter) profit to poor workers that dont help.

3) Of course Tipping in America is so liked it is common practice and you are BADLY viewed upon if you dont leave a suitable tip for a sitdown meal. This screws a customer into tipping poor service or for a poor meal. This automatic tipping is already done in High-Class classes and it just further screws the customer.

Me? I'm the 2 dollar guy. I never leave "nothing" because of the pressure of society (I'm some kind of DEMON here if I don't give people money), so I leave an average 1-3 dollars. I don't do percentages because you are tipping service not the preparation of the food (and percentages are off of how big or good of a meal you got). I will tip someone more if they are Good - But like i said I dont follow any percentage factors.

Riken Chrono · Sep 14, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

i've alwasy added up all the dishes i bought and see if its right, if its not, i tell the waitress and they look dumb struck and they go fix it. trust me it works every time.

Goats17 · Sep 15, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fungus Amongus

If I went to a restaurant and had crappy service, then received a bill with an automatic 20% gratuity added, I would call for a manager and dispute the bill. At least then a manager would get feedback on who was a good server or a bad server.

I typically leave 15%-20% for good service. Outstanding service gets 20% rounded up to the nearest $5 or $10, depending on the total tab.

Many restaurants have signs stating that parties of 6 or more will have an automatic 15% gratuity added to the check. It would be the host's responsibilty to seat larger parties to be served by the best waiters/waitresses.

I certainly do not think that automatic tips added to dinner checks is fair in most cases.

Down here in South Florida, though, automatic gratuities are often necessary. Canadian tourists here are known to be lousy tippers, often leaving $2 or $3 for a $100 meal. Imagine making all of $2.13 an hour, serving six tables of four, and totalling between $10.13 and $14.13 an hour? And that's during the few busy hours of the day. Consider serving three parties of three per hour for three hours. 3 x ($2.13 x 3) + ($2 x $3) = $37.17 for three hours of work.

That's not bad for a teenager or college student. But that will be at a Friday's, Chili's or other common chain. But for someone making a living in a more upscale restaurant, that's pretty pathetic.

Not F***ing true! I always leave good tips. It's when the service is horrible that I leave bad tips. And if there is a 20% forced tip, I pay for my bill then tip what I believe the person deserve. I don't care. (I've actually started requesting certain waiter/resses at my usual spots with my buddies.)

Malice Black · Sep 15, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

"LOL, you can indeed drink and purchase alcohol in Utah, and UT is not part of the Bible belt While I was living in TX (known for the rednecks and bars and yet part of the bible belt) they have dry counties there. Every state and counties/cities in that state have different laws. There is no state that outlaws drinking entirely."

Hmm i know 1 state there is some law against alcohol..i was young i don't remember that much..i knew utah wasnt part of the belt just dodnt phrase it right..too many beers